One of the themes of this show is that the Schoolhouse Rock version of a bill becoming a law is no longer an accurate depiction of reality (if an anthropomorphic piece of paper ever was). So what is the real version?
In this epsiode, I talk with Liz Powell of G2G Consulting, which specializes in helping businesses and nonprofits access government sources of funding. She’s working inside Capitol Hill, in the House of Commons, and has seen the inner workings of the appropriations process (which those in the know apparently call “approps”).
We talked about how budgets have become the most important legislative vehicles, why lobbyists are valued for their knowledge, and how to stay bipartisan in a partisan town.
Chris Oates
Politics is often seen as Congress passes a budget, and then that budget goes out. But there's so much work behind the scenes in the policy world and in advocacy, getting things into those budgets, and how we decide how that happens. So I'm joined with someone who has been involved with the budget and the legislative process from within Congress, and also from the outside working with small businesses and entrepreneurs to try to make sure that their ideas and their visions and their needs are met by our federal government, Liz Powell of Government to Growth consulting, thank you so much for being on the show.
Liz Powell
Thanks so much for having me, Chris.
Chris Oates
So Liz, first of all, how did you get involved in the political world? It was it, you know, knocking on doors as a child, or was it much later? Was it something in the middle?
Liz Powell
Ah, yeah. So I started as a kid growing up, my mom was actually a local town select woman and so was very active in the little town politics. And my first vote was actually for Governor Weld in Massachusetts. She made sure I voted. But that was the extent of that I went off to college. And in college, I discovered a lot of issues that I really cared about AIDS, reproductive rights, health issues, and I just became an activist on campus. And then I discovered politics. So I sort of came the backdoor in and realize that there were a lot of issues that were being defined, funded, etc, via Washington. So when I graduated, I went right to Washington, and I worked on Capitol Hill and got very sucked into the whole politics and policy world. And since then, I've been working in government affairs for gosh, 25 years now.
Chris Oates
And how was that first job? Like? What was the first day in in on Capitol Hill? Was it an internship? Was it a legislative aide? I mean, can you talk us through like your first experience of what that was like?
Liz Powell
So I, my first right out of college was actually working on a political campaign, which was a really good experience, just to learn how campaigns work and the pressure under members of Congress to get reelected and all that they have to do. And then I worked for a national association on alcohol and drug abuse. And then I got hired on to the Hill as a legislative assistant. So I never was a staff assistant, I was able to come right into a legislative spot. And I remember coming in thinking, Well, I know some things but there's an awful lot. I don't know about sort of floor procedure, and all the nuances of getting bills into law. So I learned that on the hill, I worked for a very active member of Congress. So I was able to learn that pretty quickly.
Chris Oates
When I worked on a ballot campaign, that I had the same thing where I came in, I knew so much about the issue. I mean, that's why they they got me. And then they said, Okay, do outreach. And I was like, Okay, how do I send an email to like outreach at politics dot Massachusetts? I, there was, there's so much that you just don't know. So what I mean, what was your job specifically? Was it the policy to get into the legislation? Or do you actually have to get it onto the floor? I mean, how technical did you have to get very quickly about the the internal workings of the house?
Liz Powell
Yeah, pretty quickly. My boss cared a lot about certain issues. And so I would research and come up with a legislative proposal, I'd work with legislative counsel, which is a bunch of lawyers in Congress, for Democrats and Republicans, for everyone. They're nonpartisan, they help turn it into what we call legi-speak. And then it's creating a whole advocacy campaign of how we're going to move this across the end goal. And so how do we do that we have to get always had to be bipartisan. We always had Democrats and Republicans together, introduce a bill, you do a media event to announce the bill being introduced you then try to build up cosponsors. And then simultaneously you're looking at whatever legislation is moving through Congress. Oh, can we tack it in that bill? So it was definitely a campaign in a different setting, but it's a real campaign to move legislation.
Chris Oates
Because the language you're saying, you know, advocacy, getting cosponsors, that's what groups on the outside do. That's what, you know, national organizations and nonprofits and lobbyists, they try to do, but you're saying that you also have to do it, even if you're an elected representative. And you're just doing it on your colleagues?
Liz Powell
Yeah, you definitely rely on those organizations to help you do that and be more effective. So it's, it's like a team effort. And there's also, there's a different pull. So if it's a cancer issue if the American Cancer Society is asking, versus a member of Congress who sits on the committee, right, it's a different kind of weight to it. So that's why you really need all of it. And then there's the political side of, hey, how does this impact their reelection efforts? Is this something that they campaigned on. So all of it comes together to really move legislation.
Chris Oates
And when you started, if I read your LinkedIn correctly, you started in the late 90s, when there was divided Congress, but you've been working since then. So have you seen real differences between, you know what you need to do to get something passed in a divided Congress versus one party versus another? I mean, I would imagine bipartisanship is a lot more important when one party controls the chamber. But does it drop when when it doesn't? Or do you still do the same playbook, and it's just easier one way or another?
Liz Powell
You definitely still need bipartisanship. I think bipartisanship usually wins the day, when it's been so tilted with one party controlling all three, meaning White House, House and Senate, then you don't need it as much. That is true. But I mean, to this day, as a lobbyist on the outside, that is always what we pursue is bipartisan efforts. Regardless, I just think it's better policy, and you have more likelihood for success that way. So it's still very much important.
Chris Oates
Yeah, I've noticed. And forgive me if I'm giving away trade secrets, but you haven't mentioned who your boss actually was. I looked on your LinkedIn, you don't mention who you worked for. You've never you've never said and we've you and I should just full disclosure, we've been on a number of calls, talking about politics every quarter for a venture studio we're part of, and I think it figured out but I don't know what party you're you are. Is that a deliberate ploy? Is that something that when you work in government affairs, you have to kind of keep that private so that you can work in a more bipartisan fashion? Or is that just something that you're doing specifically, but isn’t widespread practice across the industry.
Liz Powell
Some do, they're just Democratic lobbyists, just Republican lobbyists. So I have seen some do that, or some organizations have within them, clearly defined Democrat, Republican, and ours are just bipartisan across the board. So I go to events for both sides. I've done work with both sides. But when I worked in Congress, I did only work for one side of the aisle. That is true. Yeah.
Chris Oates
I mean, I assume it's one of those things that once you leave, and now all of a sudden, it's not that you don't you didn't need the other side's support when you're in Congress. But obviously, you can only work for one member at a time. So it's pretty obvious what party you're working for? So what is the transition like then from you're in Congress, you're working for a specific member, and now you want to go on the outside and work for various groups or your clients and working on issues? What was that transition like? And why did you choose to leave Congress at the time that you did?
Liz Powell
That's a really good question. So I was very passionate, I love Capitol Hill, I love working on the hill, I love the access to information, you're sort of at the center of everything when it comes to government. So I loved all that. However, a lot of people burn out on that, because it's very intense. And so I think I just hit that natural point where it's like, okay, I need a break to do something else. And I found myself coming back to it and loving it and missing it. But realizing by being on the outside advocating in, I actually had a lot of power, and really enjoyed that and really being this connector between government and people to make a difference. So I love being in my position now. And I love that I am bipartisan, and work both sides on really important issues. And I can sort of make the issue the lead, whereas when you're on the hill, it's your members, always the lead always who you work for is most important, what they need to get done and what they want to do, their talking points. It's all about them. And so it is kind of nice to be on the other side now.
Chris Oates
And when you left, did you leave Capitol Hill and then immediately go into lobbying? Or did you take say, a detour across the pond first?
Liz Powell
I did take a detour across the fund. So I did live in London for a year and I got to work for the Parliament on their health committee, which was fascinating because they are much less partisan than we are they actually have very small committee staff only like five of us. And they created a position for me, so very small compared to like Senate HELP or House Energy and Commerce health like subcommittee. So also we would have one meeting where we all came together. And we as a staff would write out questions for hearings and prep, and all of it was very joined, we would have one press release, we'd have one report, whereas in Congress, it is majority/minority on everything. There's always different reports, different press releases, different comments. So it really did function much more in a more united way. In the UK, at least when I was there, compared to here.
Chris Oates
And when you were there. I mean, it's just a fascinating switch because Congress is its own branch of government. It is Article One, and back at that time, there was a sizeable majority for the government, the prime minister, and all the cabinet positions are drawn from parliament. So who is your opposition? When you are when you're there? I assume in Congress, people are saying how can we win reelection? How can we, you know, get the majority if we're in the minority? But when you're in Parliament, are you holding the Prime Minister and the government's feet to the fire? Are you trying to get your issues out to the general public? Like, what was a win in Parliament versus a winning Congress?
Liz Powell
Yeah, that's a good question. So at the time, we did a huge report on obesity in the EU, because they were part of the EU at the time. And America was basically the model of what not to do. And so we were mapping out a whole report on like policies and things that could be implemented to avoid that. And it a lot of it was sort of awareness and education. Each of the MPs they operate more like a state legislator with like one staff, maybe two working on letters back and forth. So it was like a very different structure, I guess, compared to Congress. And I was not visited by lobbyists. It was, you know, it's in many ways it operated more like a state legislator, I guess, instead of a congressional office, but it does, you know, they are responsible for everything. And as far as opposition, I mean, it's really whenever they want to call an election, then suddenly, you can get very, you know, a lot of politics, and they do have the weekly questioning of the Prime Minister. So that's politics there.
Chris Oates
How did you get it as an American a job in the UK? Is that a common thing that they'll hire folks from Capitol Hill? Is that or is that you just happen to have a connection that that got you that job.
Liz Powell
I think I just was very lucky, because I had had my years on the Hill. And then I had just completed my master's in public health from Harvard after getting my JD. And so I think I just had a nice resume for what they were looking at the time, it's not like there's a regular program or anything, I just cold reached out to a bunch of MPs and the committee is the one that bit and they were like, Yeah, well, we'll create a position for you come over. Okay.
Chris Oates
That's amazing. But it's also kind of like a lesson that, you know, you don't lose anything by cold emailing people in search of jobs, because sometimes they're available. I've had people email me for an internship. And I was like, You know what, I'd like the idea that you are taking the initiative. So yeah, let's give it a shot here. I didn't know the House of Parliament. The House of Commons was that open, but great.
Liz Powell
Yeah. I mean, here's a tip for anyone interested, one of my former colleagues, when I worked for Congresswoman on the hill, she got the job because she she knew that they were stressed out. The Congressman won on a special election. So she didn't have a lot of the stuff that others had. So she just showed up and was like, here's some coffee. Can I help you sort through the mail? Can I help? And by day three, they're like you're hired? Yeah.
Chris Oates
That's amazing. It's like those. I believe it was the West Wing. The character of Donna just showed up, started working, didn't actually have a job, but told people she did. And then yeah, good character arc. Look what happened. Yeah. Yeah. So So after the UK, I mean, was it a one year fixed term contract? Or after a year? Did you just say, You know what, I've spent enough time here. I want to get back to the US.
Liz Powell
Yeah, it was pretty much that. So it wasn't even a contract. It was sort of like, a stipend to work as long as you could. And so I was like, alright, you know, I'm ready to go back
Chris Oates
As someone who's also been from in the UK, and then thought it's time to go back from America, I completely sympathize. So once you come came back, what did you do next?
Liz Powell
So then, I worked on a presidential campaign in Ohio. And I stayed on after the campaign. And that's where I met a lot of really interesting entrepreneurs, some nonprofits doing great work, but not knowing how to access government. Government funding, government opportunities, ways to really advance their causes, just by partnering with government. And so that's where I got the idea for GDG, which is government to growth.
Chris Oates
So how do you how do you do that? So obviously, you know a lot about politics, you now know, some people in Ohio who you think needed? Did you just kind of go to Washington incorporate put up a website or, you know, send out and hand out business cards? I mean, how do you get started in in this world? Because especially, you know, this isn't usual, you know, typical lobbying of like, I'm going to be a lobbyist for an existing organization or an existing client or add an existing lobby shop, how do you get started with people who almost by definition, don't know that they need a lobbyist to help them with government?
Liz Powell
Yeah, so my resume was distinctive in Ohio, not so much in DC, a lot of people have my background in DC, but in Ohio, it stood out. And so people were getting to know me because I was there on the ground and trusting me. And so I would point out, well, there's this opportunity over here. There's this funding stream you're not accessing. Let me show you how. And so that's how I was able to build up a client base. And once I had some results, like I was able to secure government funding for a company. Then from there, I had a result to point two that really helped me get more clients and what
Chris Oates
What's the process like? Is it going to these events where there's startups or entrepreneurs or nonprofits? What’s business development in this world, because I'm guessing it's people that might not even be at the events where they know they need government help.
Liz Powell
Yeah, a lot of it was physically being there at different events, whether there were sort of high tech pitch events or economic development events. But over time, it's all on the internet now. So it's all about developing lists and making sure you're putting out information that's truly useful to that population. They then sign up to get on your list, and then they become clients.
Chris Oates
And what's it been like over the last, you know, 15 years or so? How has Washington evolved? Obviously, politics in DC has evolved a tremendous amount to anyone watching the news. But in this area of helping nonprofits and entrepreneurs access government funding, has there been a huge shift? Or is this kind of one of the area's that's still same as always?
Liz Powell 15:47
I think in many ways, there has been a shift back in those days, I remember Dave Obie, and Ralph Regula, Democrat and Republican working very well together on health appropriations, that's a lot of what I do. I do a lot in health, innovation, high tech, they would go to each other's districts every year and bring leadership from NIH, all the different institutes to come meet their constituents, they work together to get the final bills done, it just was much more congenial. Even some events, you would see some members crossing over and just stopping by to say, hello. That does not happen now. Folks, if they're on one side of the aisle versus the other, barely talking to each other. So that climate has changed a lot. You have more flame throwers sort of in the mix, both sides that make it really difficult to come up with a compromise deal. And when we're talking about budgets and appropriations, which gets done every year, it's really hard to get bills through when you're in that environment. And then they had earmarks, they put an 11 year moratorium on earmarks in 2010. So then those are out of the picture, but then they've come back recently, so that I think that is helping to get people to work together. But in many ways, it's a different environment I've seen over the past 15 years, as far as congeniality, I think that's that's something that we need to work on.
Chris Oates
And I mean, one thing I've read, but I don't know the facts: have you seen fewer members actually spending time in DC? Is it? Has there been an increase of flying on Tuesday morning, fly out on Thursday evening? Or is that is that something that you know, is talked about in the press is like, Oh, well, that's a problem members don't spend the weekend in DC but it’s not a real big deal.
Liz Powell 17:30
No, as someone who worked for a couple different members, now they everyone was fine in and out. I think what's going on, though, is when they were in DC, they would grab a drink together or go to a dinner together go to a benefit, like a lot of nonprofits will have galas or whatever, and both sides would be there. And they would be talking with each other and actually enjoying each other's company. And there's less of that. I think people stick to each side of their aisle. And I'll tell you something recently, I heard Liz Cheney speak right before the elections. And after she spoke and was just sharing some insights on obviously her unique perspective. One of the questions was about how you know what she thinks of the other side now that she's part of this committee. And she, Liz Cheney, a long lineage of political, politically engaged, well positioned people had never talked to Nancy Pelosi before all this. It wasn't till she was on the January 6 committee that she actually talked to her. Got to know her, which I thought was fascinating. And what a sad indication that the two sides just don't really interact that much, and definitely not in a more in depth way.
Chris Oates
Yeah, I think it's fascinating that DC and maybe this is just my perspective, DC is so into bipartisanship as an idea. Like every bill has to be bipartisan, which is great if it could but I mean, I'm more of the Ezra Klein idea of like, parties should advocate their policies and run on them. And if they get elected, they should enact them. But DC is both idealizes bipartisanship so much, but then also discounts it to such a great extent where it just doesn't happen on many things. But then again, there's another idea and I want to get your take on this, that there is something the blogger and now newsletter writer Matt Yglesias calls it the secret Congress, where there's lots of things that happen as soon as they get any news attention, and they're polarized, because they affect the party's reelection chances, you know, cooperation ceases, but then there's a lot of other things that no one notices are happening. And they go through the old ways. Is that something that you think is real and true? Or is that something that maybe he's cherry picking a few examples and developing a theory around? Do you think it's, there's a kind of a two tiered system of Congress, or is it just still one tiered?
Liz Powell
Hmm, that's a great analysis. I think every year they have to get these appropriations bills done. And the National Defense Authorization acts are really 13 bills done every year. And inevitably, they get mashed together in some kind of omnibus, and things do get slipped in there by the pros, the people that are running the appropriations committees They know how to do that. Speaker Pelosi knew how to do that. Like they all knew how to do that. So I think that continues. I do think that the moderates in Congress, both sides of the aisle, they have a lot of power if they're willing to come together, and they do sometimes on some really important legislation. So I think it's a little bit of both that's going on these days, probably,
Chris Oates
And with the rise of omnibus and reconciliations in the idea that there's almost like one or two legislative vehicles every year, how does it make a difference for your work? Because 50 years ago, someone in your position, you would work on a bill and it would go through a committee and it'd be like Schoolhouse Rock. And now it does feel like it's you you build that advocacy campaign to get it tacked on to the big thing? And does that make it harder because you just personally are now crammed, and overwhelmed with all the different things you're juggling for that like one or two votes every year?
Liz Powell
Yeah, I think it's definitely challenging. Because when you have a specific issue, you work with the committee of jurisdiction, you educate the chair, the ranking members of that subcommittee, maybe there's a few people in Congress that are active on that issue, as well. And those are the folks that you're regularly working with to get your bill brought up in a hearing to have it considered under markup. But with everything thrown into the omnibus, you then now have to make sure that the leadership like the Speaker, minority Leader, like all those key people, the overall head of appropriations, like they all have to know this issue well, and they're swamped. They've got a bajillion issues on their radar, right. And so how are you going to stand up enough to get included? So definitely it's more people to work, it's a lot of education and having really good timing, it's important,
Chris Oates
it seems like the hardest job in Congress must be the staff for the Senate Majority or Minority leader because I just from a, you know, it can get busy at work, you know, at any work, and it's harder to do your job well, when you're busy. But then, you know, we've it seems like we've shifted to a legislative model that places a huge amount of work on just a very small number of individuals. I assume it makes it difficult for you because you have to educate them. But does it mean that your work is now kind of throughout the year, guiding them to a place where when they start to get overwhelmed, you're now a resource? And you know that is that what everyone's doing trying to get to a smaller and smaller number of people?
Liz Powell
Yeah, absolutely. I think lobbyists, advocates, outside groups are a tremendous resource when I was on the Hill, even before this, I relied on lobbyists to tell me which line of the bill I understand the issue. I don't know where in the bill, can you tell me they would do it? A letter has to be drafted, they would draft a letter. And so now I'm on that other side. I'm the one doing that. So we find the line of the bill, we get into the nitty gritty details. Because there's no way as a staffer that you could understand all these issues in depth, and know specific lines of the bill and all that. So it's definitely I think, much more than people realize there's huge reliance on lobbyists, on advocates, on organizations, because they do have that expertise in order to get all the work done. You know, and there also comes a point at which these handful of staff, they just can't manage it, they're gonna have to rely on others. So whether they rely on another staffer in a member's office, or you as a lobbyists, or both, which is reality, how else is it going to get done?
Chris Oates
Do you think that we're that this is kind of going to be the indefinite future? Or is this a trend where you see more and more reliance on lobbyists? Or is Congress maybe you think, going to start hiring more staffers in the future? I'm curious where we are and where do you think we're going in this kind of just basic the workings of government?
Liz Powell
Well, I do think that emails are insane, plus, there's all the social media stuff, it's just, it's insane. They're way overloaded. So I think they could use more staffing help, but I think that's unlikely. I don't think they want to increase the budgets for members. So they just have to be able to do more with less. And so what does that mean? They're gonna rely on these outside folks in order to get it done,
Chris Oates
Shifting away from the functioning of government to the issues that you work on? What do you where do you think the future is, especially of innovation, in terms of government funding? Because it does seem like the inflation Reduction Act has a lot of funding climate change technology? Do you think that we're in a world now of the government's more comfortable funding technical stuff? Or is that just kind of a blip? Because that was the culmination of two years of active legislation by unified government. And now we're going to go back to the status quo before so - inflection point or just a blip?
Liz Powell
Yeah, I think it was a chance to exploit an opportunity. I mean, we had COVID pandemic, we had a population, a country, eager for relief. And so they were willing to spend money, they were willing to have legislation spend a lot of money and so now that you're seeing a pullback from that by a razor thin majority in the House like that, that is now the rhetoric of cutting back on spending. So I think based on who’s in power it’ll just keep swinging, you know, because it's always a power control element to it. Also, technology has been funded for years by DOD, they put tons of money into technology r&d initiatives, a lot of companies have been getting funded organizations, institutes. So there's a quite a long history there, plus NIH and BARDA and these other sources. So on the one hand, it's happening. On the other hand, it got a huge boost, because we had this amazing opportunity with the pandemic to respond to that. And so that drove a lot of like, the whole diagnostics area is just having an amazing growth period right now. And that could really change. What if we could do all this diagnostic or a lot of it at home, instead of having to go into a doctor's office, which is huge for someone juggling two jobs and kids. So I do think that government is seeing the value of that there. I think they'll always be funding for technology, innovation, r&d, how much of it just depends on who's in power and what the budget overall budget looks like?
Chris Oates
Yeah, you're right. I mean, the Department of Defense basically funded the internet when it first started, right, and so many other things, like the astronaut pen. So before we go, first of all, thank you so much for talking about this. It's been really, really fascinating to see like, what what it is to actually write a bill, not the Schoolhouse Rock version, because I think that's out of date. What is working in this world really? Like? Is it West Wing, House of Cards, Veep, or Parks and Rec?
Liz Powell
Oh, wow. Um, so House of Cards is way too dark, no, there's no murder. So it's not quite that. But the horse trading, definitely, it's parts of that. Veep. There's definitely lots of egos and getting too caught up in that, that you're going to have to navigate and make sure you've credit to the right people, White House. lots of moving parts is definitely fast moving like that. I would say it's not always that altruistic, though. And then what was oh, Parks and Recreation. So I'm a personal fan of that I think of myself as Leslie Knope. Many times, it can get petty like that, like silly, stupid things can get in the way. So it's a little bit of all of it. But I think that at all levels of government, there are people in it who care who actually are there to make a difference, whatever their political persuasion, it's like, they are actually there to do something. I think there's still enough of those that we can get things done. But we got to we got to find ways to work together. I think that's definitely my my big takeaway.
Chris Oates
Yeah. Okay, what was your best day professionally or a very good day? If you don't want to choose just one?
Liz Powell
Well, I'll tell you, I'll tell you a fun one. When I was on the Hill, we succeeded in changing the law around the requirements for our military women to wear head to toe abeyas that basically cover everything except their eyes, which was required in Saudi Arabia. And I was able to get Christian conservatives, women's rights, like all kinds of people to come together on this. And we actually I did a huge poster of myself with my blue eyes popping through with this head to toe abeya. And all the members of Congress, again, Democrats, Republicans, conservative, liberal, whatever, were so glued to that poster as my boss is sitting there explaining the amendment. We got it through, and it was a real bipartisan effort. And Heather Wilson, and Jim Langeman are the two that are really responsible that bipartisan, really cool, successful, and then that that we did.
Chris Oates
So when you know, they're on C span, and they have those big poster boards next to them. They have one of that, and it was you. That is very cool. And finally, what is something you wish someone had told you before you got started in this in this world, that would have been useful?
Liz Powell
What would be useful? I don't know. Be open minded to where you go with this. And, you know, when you're on the Hill, you learn a ton, about government, about process, about issues. And there's a lot that you can do with that knowledge. And so I think just keeping an open mind about what direction to go, I never thought I would run my own business doing this. But I'm so glad that I do now and I work on so many different interesting issues and causes. So I guess that's what I would tell myself.
Chris Oates
That is fantastic. I think that's a great place to end this. So thank you very much for being our guest and good luck with the upcoming legislative session.
Liz Powell
Thank you so much, Chris.
How does the budget actually work with Liz Powell of G2G Consulting